Bill 12–The Crown Land Dispositions Act
Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): First of all, the minister has said during question period that the parks are not for sale. I raised the concern about the future–whether they could be for sale under these provisions in the future. I didn't get a clear answer for that, and that would have certainly been helpful.
I asked the minister whether there
would be any implications of this bill for the Crown land leases for
agricultural purposes, which are causing a lot of stress for farmers at the
moment, for producers in a number of parts of Manitoba. And the minister said,
no, there would not. I await committee stage for further discussion of that. I
think that's something that we are concerned about and would want to know
exactly what any implications were, if there were some.
Third, I asked the minister about
sales to close relatives in the document. In the bill itself it refers to
senior civil servants. There is not a mention of close relatives, and I think
that is something which we'd like to know more about.
We do feel that it's really
important to have–if you're going to sell Crown land–a really good process for
valuation of that land, a fair valuation, that we don't have giveaways of land,
that we have fair valuation of that land before decisions are made. This is
important and, quite frankly, this presumably would be in regulation, but we'd
like to have better assurance on that. We want to ensure that the process for
any sale of Crown land is fair, that there's not queue-jumping, as it were, but
that there's a reasonable process to make sure that Manitobans are treated
fairly.
Next, we're concerned about the
stewardship of the land. We live in a world where we're very conscious of
things like climate change. We're very conscious of floods. We want and feel
that there needs to be some sort of process incorporated–for example, sale of a
land which has a small body of water on it–there should there be
requirements in terms of stewardship of the land so that a large slough, for
example, which is a large permanent water body, is not drained, to the
detriment of landowners downstream.
What about peatlands? We know that
there's tremendous amounts of carbon in peatlands. Will there be requirements
to ensure that there's reasonable stewardship of land? Where there are trees
on the land–we know that if you completely remove trees from land, you remove a
lot of stored carbon, but you also have an impact on the way that the water
comes off the land, because there's no longer the trees to absorb the water
that they need, and that can have a big impact. So we have some questions about
stewardship of the land.
There is a lot about sale of the
land, but it's not clear what happens in the case of transfer of Crown land to
a rural municipality or a local government district, how that process will work
in the context of this bill. This bill appears to remove the requirement for
review by the department. We'd like to be a little bit more sure potential
future government needs for land are taken into account, or potential needs for
not just other departments but potential for the benefit of all Manitobans.
So, with those few comments and
concerns raised, I will close my remarks at this point and look forward to
what's being said at the committee stage.
Thank you. Merci.
Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question to the minister
is this: will certain lands, for example, which are in provincial parks, would
they be under the classification of Crown lands and could they be sold under
this–the terms of this act?
Hon. Reg Helwer (Minister of Central Services): Our parks are not for sale.
Mr. Gerrard: Yes. To the minister: the minister says that sales to senior civil servants will have to be approved by Cabinet. Will this 'appry' to all civil servants? Would this apply to close relatives of the senior civil servants so that the senior civil servant couldn't get around this by having a partner or a son purchase the property? What is the situation and what will the government do in these cases?
Mr. Helwer: Well,
not everybody thinks about things in a sordid manner like some of the members
in this Legislature; we do tend to trust our civil servants. But, of course,
there was an Auditor General's report on the Hecla land sales.
And we want to make sure that those
types of things do not become replicated and that there is an oversight to
make sure that the sales are arm's length and that they are correct and
they're–that they're well done in a timely fashion.
Mr. Gerrard: I'm
trying to get an understanding how this relates to the policies that the
government has done in terms of affecting Crown lands, which are being farmed
by ranchers and–at the moment. And a number of them are having leases coming up
very shortly–and will this affect, in any way, the position of such
ranchers?
Mr. Helwer: So
this concerns sale of Crown lands that are be declared surplus, not leased
land.
Mr. Gerrard: Yes.
My question is, again, on the–who will be classified as a senior civil servant?
Is there a clear–what level of civil servant would have to have a sale or
purchase go through Cabinet?
Mr. Helwer: So
the definitions of who is a civil servant, who is a senior civil servant and
who will be subject to this is all in the act, and it's part of the other side
of the department, which is the Civil Service Commission, on levels of the
civil service.
So, I think those designations are
fairly obvious, but most senior civil servants know who they are and what their
level of classification is. I think all of them do, actually.
Mr. Gerrard: Yes.
To the minister, I'm just interested to know whether there are any special
situations with regard to First Nations, Inuit or Métis people with regard to
the disposal of Crown lands?
Mr. Helwer: Absolutely,
we are bound by treaty land entitlement, and we're very cognizant of that fact
and we've done, I think, a very outstanding job in this government in making
sure that if a land is–a Crown land is declared a surplus that goes through
that procedure, that it can be selected for TLE.
And the communication with First
Nations communities for that is–has been working quite well, and we–the
minister responsible for that would know much better than I how many acres of
land has–have been transferred, but far more in the first couple of years we
were in government than the previous government ever did in 17 years.
Mr. Gerrard: I
would ask the minister, what sort of extent of sale of surplus Crown lands
would he expect to occur in the next year, two years and five years?
Mr. Helwer: Well,
it's an excellent question, and we know what we have as an inventory of Crown
land. We know that there are people that are interested in it. Those
expressions of interest have been piling up as we've been moving through this
process to make sure that it can be enabled and work in a timely manner. And we
want to make sure that we get back to those individuals quickly with a good
response so that they can determine how and when they can move ahead purchasing
that land.
The declaration of when something
is surplus usually comes to the department that might be using that land, that
may no longer feel the need for it.
Mr. Gerrard: Just
a follow-up on the–one question which I had earlier on. I asked about senior
civil servants. Are close relatives affected in any way?
Mr. Helwer: That's
an excellent question, and I think those types of things, the specifications,
we need to be further into the bill and working with the department to make
sure that we can make the member comfortable with how we make sure that our
land sales are above board, that we don't have any Hecla issues, if you want to
look at it that way, and that it's fully public and disclosed.
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